Sunday, September 9, 2007

Typical liberal "Catholic" Bull-oney

"It's OK to be protestant. Really. That's what Vatican II, which you despise so much says, you silly traddies - there is more than one path to salvation."

When a self-proclaimed "Catholic" says something like this you know VII needs clarification.

I could refute this heresy on so many levels but I think the error stands for itself.

http://reform-catholic.blogspot.com/2007/07/schismatic-watch-2.html

26 comments:

paramedicgirl said...

I went there today, and I just had to call him a heretic. I bet he didn't publish that comment. Oh, well, to be fair, I don't publish all the ones he leaves on my blog, either.

Didn't the Church used to burn heretics at the stake????

Unitas said...

Us apologists like to say that it was the state that carried out the punishments for heresy... hehe

But yes, his disonance with Catholic teaching is flagrant, and it's obvious he's not trying to hide it. But still calls himself Catholic.

I still can't comprehend it, really. It's like a crickett player saying he plays baseball; He's playing with a completely different set of rules.

I don't know how someone that intellectually dishonest can sleep at night.

Karin said...

Unitas...
It was suggested that I read your blog by Paramedicgirl...
1st let me state, you have done a great job ( you have now been added to my Must Read Blogs)
2nd in regards to this post...I have to cry when I read things like this...what is even sadder is that some people that read that blog, also teach Cathecism classes...can you just see Satan jumping for joy over this?!

Winnipeg Catholic said...

Hmm. Burning heretics at the stake now are we? You traddies reveal your true nature by your uncharity and violence. So what is my heresy o thrower of stones and unblocker of eyes?

Unitas said...

From Dominus Iesus:

"This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.

From the CCC (As if you care what the Catechism says):

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


The importance of unity of doctrine from scripture:

Here Paul stresses unity in doctrine:
1Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment. "

And again showing unity of faith:
Eph 4:3-5 "Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

And again in verse 14-15:
"That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:" Christ is mentioned again as the head of the church in Eph 5:23. To be united in doctrine is to be united to the Church, of which Christ is the head.

Again Paul stresses unity in orthodoxy as he exhorts Timothy to keep the faithful from learning error:
1Ti 1:3 "As I desired thee to remain at Ephesus when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some not to teach otherwise,"

Gal 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

Paul again teaches Timothy about the dangers of conflicting doctrines:
1Ti 4:1 "Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils,"

Paul now tells Titus about unity in doctrine:
Titus 1:9 "Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine, and to convince the gainsayers."

There were no conflicting doctrines in the early Church as seen in acts:
Acts 4:32 "And the multitude of believers had but one heart and one soul: neither did any one say that aught of the things which he possessed, was his own; but all things were common unto them."

Unitas said...

And now for Papal decrees:

Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noe had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noe, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed. ... We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

Pope Boniface I, Epistle 14.1: "It is clear that this Roman Church is to all churches throughout the world as the head is to the members, and that whoever separates himself from it becomes an exile from the Christian religion, since he ceases to belong to it's fellowship."

Pope Pelagius II (578-590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church" (Denzinger, 469).

Saint Gregory the Great (590-604), Moralia: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."

Pope Sylvester II, Profession of Faith, June AD 991: "I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved."

Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), Profession of Faith prescribed for the Waldensians: "With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved" (Denzinger 792).

Pope Clement VI, Letter Super Quibusdam (to Consolator the Catholicon of Armenia), September 20, 1351: "In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside of the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved. ... In the ninth place, if you have believed and do believe that all who have raised themselves against the faith of the Roman Church and have died in final impenitence have been damned and have descended to the eternal punishments of hell."

Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum: "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth Itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members. For we have a surer word of the prophet, and in writing to you We speak wisdom among the perfect; not the wisdom of this world but the wisdom of God in a mystery. By it we are taught, and by divine faith we hold, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and that no other name under heaven is given to men except the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in which we must be saved. This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ... For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'"

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter Studio (on Mixed marriages), 5-6, May 27, 1832: "You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the Apostles, martyred Saint Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: 'Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.' Moreover, Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: 'Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ' (Epsitle 141). Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise Saint Gregory the Great, who expressly testifies that this is indeed the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: 'The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved' (Moral. in Job, 16.5). Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of the Lateran IV, these things are written: 'There is one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved.' Finally, the same dogma is expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use (Creed of the Council of Trent), but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses (cf. Gregory XIII, Profession 'Sanctissimus') and that which other Eastern Catholics use (cf. Benedict XIV, Profession 'Nuper ad Nos') ... We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies."

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Allocution Singulari Quadem, December 9, 1854: "Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and "judgements of God" which are "a great abyss" (Ps. 35.7) and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic Duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive form the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.
"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains 'we shall see God as He is' (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.
"But, just as the way of charity demands, let us pour forth continual prayers that all nations everywhere may be converted to Christ; and let us be devoted to the common salvation of men in proportion to our strength, 'for the hand of the Lord is not shortened' (Isa. 9.1) and the gifts of heavenly grace will not be wanting to those who sincerely wish and ask to be refreshed by this light."

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Singulari Quidem, March 17, 1856: "Teach that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and come to the community of His children (Romans 1; Hebrews 11; Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 8). There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord (St. Cyprian, Epistle 43), outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church (ibid, On the Unity of the Catholic Church)."

Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863: "And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom 'the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,' (Council of Chalcedon, Letter to Pope Leo I) cannot obtain eternal salvation. The words of Christ are clear enough: 'And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican' (Matthew 18:17); 'He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that dispeth you, despiseth Me; and he that dispiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me' (Luke 10:16); 'He that believeth not shall be condemned' (Mark 16:16); 'He that doth not believe, is already judged" (John 3:18); 'He that is not with Me, is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me, scattereth' (Luke 11:23). The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned' (Titus 3:11); the Prince of the Apostles calls the 'false prophets ... who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction' (2 Peter 2:1)."

Pope Pius IX The Syllabus of Errors, attached to Encyclical Quanta Cura, 1864: [The following are prescribed errors:] "16. Men can, in the cult of any religion, find the way of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation. - Encyclical Qui pluribus, November 9, 1846.
"17. One ought to at least have good hope for the eternal salvation of all those who in no way dwell in the true Church of Christ. - Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863, etc."

Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus: "This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God's commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."

idem, Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae:"He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God."

Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane: "It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation."

Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum: "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos: "The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. ... Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors."

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Encyclical Humani Generis, August 12, 1950: "Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation."

Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953): "By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth."

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: "They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."

Of course, the exception is made for those who are invincibly ignorant.

But it makes zero exception for those who are willfully ignorant.

Only the Catholic Church saves. If a non-card-carrying person is saved, it is the Catholic truth that has saved them. Protestantism is a heresy and does not save.

Unitas said...

Your belief quoted here, as well as many others espoused on your blog, are in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Magisterium.

That, by definition, is heresy.

I urge you to reconsider your views with an open heart and reject this heresy for the good of your soul.

Winnipeg Catholic said...

I said that the catholic path is the best one. How is that indifferent? You think it is a sin to be born protestant? The church begs to differ.

What I said:

Well, the beat goes on. Amidst more longing for the perfect, sunny, utopian days of 1960 Kevin Caveman has yet more diatribe about the liberal church gone wrong. And of course on the page you find only one jewel of his true schismatic motivation:

"4. The SSPX is sedevacantist (believes that there is currently no valid pope). Wrong. The SSPX has always looked upon our pope as the valid, legitimate Pontiff of the Holy Catholic Church."

Kevin is an SSPX schismatic. The so-caleld "Paramedic Golden Girl"? Ditto. The conservative SSPX schismatics have identified the catholic blogosphere as a place to push their schismatic, sinful agenda.

One notices that the one unforgiveable sin (in Kevin's eyes) of the very orthdox Tony from Catholic Pillow Fight is.... (drum roll please) attacking SSPX, Kevin's true caveman agenda. For this, Kevin banned tony from his blog (who cares).

Kevin & Georgia, I have news for you. It is not enough to pay lip service to loyalty to the Pope. The Pope declared the TLM valid and what does SSPX do? It cries 'doctrinal differences' and remains in its schism, as predicted.

What's the difference between someone confessing dissent like myself, or Fr. Curran? We don't appoint our own bishops and start our own churches.

That's the difference Schismatics. Get it through your thick, wooly, schismatic heads. Half the Anglicans in the world pray for the Bishop of Rome on Sundays. That doesn't make them any less protestant than anyone else who appoints bishops without the blessings of the pope.

It's OK to be protestant. Really. That's what Vatican II, which you despise so much says, you silly traddies - there is more than one path to salvation. But our Catholic path is the best one, and your schismatic traddie path is about the same as an Anglican one. It's good too, really, it is.

I should add what someone more knowledgeable than I had to say about the Motu Pro and the SSPX, Cardinal Sean O'Malley:

"The Holy Father is obviously most concerned about trying to bring about reconciliation in the Church. There are about 600,000 Catholics who are participating in the liturgies of the Society of St. Pius X, along with about 400 priest.

But by making the Latin Mass more available, the Holy Father is hoping to convince those disaffected Catholics that it is time for them to return to full union with the Catholic Church... The Motu Proprio is his latest attempt at reconciliation.

In my comments at the meeting I told my brother bishops that in the United States the number of people who participate in the Latin Mass even with permission is very low. Additionally, according to the research that I did, there are only 18 priories of the Society of St. Pius X in the entire country. Therefore this document will not result in a great deal of change for the Catholics in the U.S. Indeed, interest in the Latin Mass is particularly low here in New England."

Of course, this drove Kevin Caveman nuts, since his entire agenda is based on SSPX. Anyone who criticizes SSPX is attacking Kevin's false pope.

He proceeds on a long winded diatribe about how Cardinal Sean failed to review all the issues in the church in the same blog entry as his saying anything remotely against SSPX. In other words, only the TLM, latin mass, and SSPX will save the church in Kevin's mind, because the schismatic SSPX church *is* the church and the magisterium to Mr. Kevin.

Karin said...

It's OK to be protestant. Really.

Sure you can be protestant but the ONE TRUE CHURCH is the CATHOLIC CHURCH!

there is more than one path to salvation.
"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" (Outside the church, there is no salvation).
CCC 846, 847 and 848 sums it up pretty well but I am sure that you dont care about it W.C.

paramedicgirl said...

Unitas, better head over to winnie the pooh's blog. He's done a post about you. (you schismatic SSPXer, you) ;}

Unitas said...

"I said that the catholic path is the best one. How is that indifferent? You think it is a sin to be born protestant? The church begs to differ."

Of course not. Only those protestants who willfully reject the truth and the Church as the repository of that truth are guilty of the schism of the protestant reformers. Those who are born into it and don't knwo any better are only in material heresy, not formal.

But what you did say is that "there is more than one path to salvation."

This is simply untrue.

Only Christ's death on the cross and the truth revealed to mankind through His Church can save.

*IF* a non-card-carrying person is saved then it is through the Christ's death on the cross and the truth entrusted to the Catholic Church alone.

A person's protestation of Catholicism cannot save them.

Protesting that truth cannot save.

There is only one path to salvation and that is Catholicism and the truth the Church safeguards.

If Catholicism is the truth and anything contrary to it is error, only the truth can set you free. error cannot save you.

Winnipeg Catholic said...

You're likea broken record. I never said that other faiths are equally good. I said that the catholic faith is the best one.

For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.

Do you see the word fullness? That's a lot like the word best. Get it through your silly traddie head. Baptists, Lutherans, and Buddhists may be on a less-good path than you but they are not necessarily going to hell. It's not 'very rare' at all to meet a protestant who is far more serious about their faith than a lapsed or cutlural catholic.

Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

*you can delete this if you like*

Unitas,
I just read what that idiot posted.

I've come to the conclusion that Water Closet is just a sad, pathetic little creature... no matter how "gay" he is. The only way this miserable wretch can get any attention at all is to throw cyber-tantrums.

To best illustrate just how really pathetic this individual is, I've told him on more than one occasion that I attend a Diocesan Latin Mass. But don't let the truth get in the way of good name calling. He's just a friggin' idiot.

Want to know the beast way to send in into orbit? Tell him on his blog that, in your eyes, he's a persona non grata. He doesn't even exist any more. That you refuse to even acknowledge his very existence.

Believe me, that'll make his head explode. He'll be crying into his pillow for weeks.

I've given him the cold shoulder, and just knowing that it gnaws at him makes me ever so happy! I can see him now... lisping curses at me... stomping his feet... throwing bric-a-brac at his life partner, etc.

Ahhhh.... I'm happy now.

Winnipeg Catholic said...

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin. I don't care if you call me gay, or water closet gay, or whatever nasty terms you come up with. You're just a silly schismatic traddie.

And I knew Bishop Burbridge and his Vicar General Very Rev. Brockman were both excellent men in your diocese back when you were still trashing your Bishop. I know that plenty of pastors were offering the Norvus Ordo in Latin in Raleigh, long before the motu pro came out.

I have way more respect for the orthodox and ultramontane leaders of the church that you ever will. You're far too busy trashing them to justify your wrath and schism. Seems to me that just the other day you were trashing Cardinal Sean. You have lot to learn little Caveman.

I'm sad for you that you're such a wrathful uncharitable dissenter and you are too blind to even see it. But I am glad that you came around far enough to show your bishop a modicum of respect.

Unitas said...

You're likea broken record. I never said that other faiths are equally good. I said that the catholic faith is the best one.

For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.

Do you see the word fullness? That's a lot like the word best. Get it through your silly traddie head. Baptists, Lutherans, and Buddhists may be on a less-good path than you but they are not necessarily going to hell. It's not 'very rare' at all to meet a protestant who is far more serious about their faith than a lapsed or cutlural catholic.

But you did say it's ok to be a protestant and there are many pasths to God.

You are correct in that Catholicism is the fullness of the truth whereas other religions may have only partial truth if any at all.

But does that mean it's ok to remain in partial darkness? No, of course not. With anything less than the complete truth your soul is still in danger.

There is only one path to salvation and that is through His Church. No other faith saves.

So your interpretation of VII saying that there are many paths to God is plainly wrong.

Only the Church is the repository of Truth, and only that Truth saves. If a non-Catholic is saved then it is through whatever Catholic Truth he is faithful to that he has access to.

There is no other path to salvation other than through Christ and His Church. It is this same truth that saves us, Catholic or non-Catholic.

Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Unitas,
I just wanted to point out what a mentally unbalanced individual WC is.

As you see in his recent tantrum, he states; "But I am glad that you came around far enough to show your bishop a modicum of respect"

And a mere 10 short minutes later, he sends this comment to my blog; (which I promptly deleted), this buffoon states "Why don't you show an ounce of obedience to your bishop? He didn't ask for your approval, and he didn't need your approval. You're just traddie schismatic. Next thing you know he'll say something you don't like and you'll be back to your protestant ways."

Never mind the fact that I've never posted one derogitory thing against Bishop Burbidge. In fact, all I've ever posted about His Excellency was positive comments. But as you're starting to learn, WC makes up his version of "the truth" as he goes along (and it's almost always heretical).

Anyhow, this WC character is quite honestly, living in some sort of fantasy world. Seriously man... this guy's unbalanced.

Just a suggestion, but you might want to reconsider giving this lunatic a soap-box to screech from. Take it from personal experience... he's trying to hijack your blog.

Winnipeg Catholic said...

Hey there Kevin, these are your words:

I'll come clean... a week or so back, I was fairly upset about a few things that I thought were taking place here in the Diocese of Raleigh.

Let's not forget what you said about Cardinal Sean either. Seems he wasn't friendly enough towards SSPX enough for you if I recall correctly?

Winnipeg Catholic said...

Hi Unitas,

I suppose I am letting Kevin hijack me away from actually discussing anything with you.

So your interpretation of VII saying that there are many paths to God is plainly wrong.

I don't see how you keep coming to this conclusion. You use the word 'saved' via strict adherence to natural law. You confess that is allowed for by church doctrine. You seem to go on to claim that it is because Christ snuck in as Buddha and still saved the Buddhist, despite the doctrinal flaws in that faith (eschatological differences).

So I really don't see why you need to add a ton more verbiage to the statement:

"There are other paths to God but ours is the best one"

You seem to want to say:

"There is only one path to God, it is ours, other people accidently walk on it while they think they are Buddhist, Baptist, Lutheran, or whatever."

Frankly, I think that is going a bit far. I think one can believe that the Catholic faith is the best one, as B16 recently clarified, and still respect other faiths without being indifferent to that truth. And even if you think that is too wishy washy for you, I think it is a far cry from heresy.

Vir Speluncae Catholicus said...

Hey stupid,
Being "upset" and then admitting that I was wrong automatically equates into schism? Do you make this up as you go along?

This isn't a simple case of disagreeing on a certain point of order, or even a theological question. You're really screwed-up in the head. I honest to God believe you have a chemical imbalance that makes you believe that 2+2 really does equal 5.

No I take that back. In light of your self-proclaimed attraction to men, and your embracing of the heresy of Protestantism, I'm fully convinced that you are simply an evil person.

I have nothing more to say to you except that I'll pray for your conversion to Catholicism.

Good luck, you'll need it.

Unitas said...

"I don't see how you keep coming to this conclusion. You use the word 'saved' via strict adherence to natural law. You confess that is allowed for by church doctrine. You seem to go on to claim that it is because Christ snuck in as Buddha and still saved the Buddhist, despite the doctrinal flaws in that faith (eschatological differences)."

Christ never snuck in as Buddha.

What I'm saying is in line with the magisterium that we may respect any *real* truth found in another faith.

If a protestant believes in the Trinity, and yet protestantism is error, that doesn't mean the Trinity is error as well. I can respect that, yet still reject his error and hold Catholicism as the one true faith. All truth is Catholic in nature.

Then the question of "How much truth do we need to be saved?" No one knows. That's why evangelization and conversion is paramount.

Any truth a person has they didn't get by accident. God is always calling us towards the truth no matter what faith we have. But it is God providing this truth to us through His Church and the Natural Law wriiten on our hearts, not another false religion.

Since the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1Ti 3:15) all truth is Catholic in nature. Only the Catholic Truth saves.

Adherence to Natural Law as a means to salvation only works in cases of invincible ignorance. Even then, no one knows if it's possible or not. It's conjecture.

Concerning the willfully ignorant, that's a completely different story.

If a person rejects the Church and just follows the Natural Law and mosey's down "his path" to God, since he rejected the Truth he will not be saved. He is not invincibly ignorant, but is now culpable for his ignorance.

"So I really don't see why you need to add a ton more verbiage to the statement:"

It's a very complicated topic, that's why.

On may forums when there's a discusison on EENS it usually goes on for pages. I thought my explanation was quite succinct, compared to.

Winnipeg Catholic said...

Kevin,

All I can say is ?huh?

In light of your self-proclaimed attraction to men, and your embracing of the heresy of Protestantism, I'm fully convinced that you are simply an evil person.

I am not and never claimed to be same sex attracted. You project that on me perhaps. Because a man using winnie the pooh as an icon is scary to you, or because you can't fathom a straight man being offended by your nasty, violent bigotry. But that's really not my problem. I'm confident enough in my masculinity that I really don't care all that much about your playground insults.

I do think that leaving all your filthy 'feces swishing' talk around on the web for orthodox catholics like CorageMan and David Morrison and the like to find on your blog is pretty mean, and pretty evil. They actually do struggle with SSA and somehow I doubt you help them too much. In fact, I don't think you help anyone with your blog other than yourself, giving vent to your spleen.

Unitas:

Still seems like minor nuance to me. A much more complicated way to say there are other paths, but ours is the best one.

Now you seem to say something like:

"There might be another path but we can't be sure, and anyway it is narrow and frought with peril and might not even be there at all!"

Still seems like 500 ways to say the same thing.

I will quote JPII in my blog.

Unitas said...

"Still seems like minor nuance to me. A much more complicated way to say there are other paths, but ours is the best one.

Now you seem to say something like:

"There might be another path but we can't be sure, and anyway it is narrow and frought with peril and might not even be there at all!"

Still seems like 500 ways to say the same thing.

I will quote JPII in my blog."

/Sigh

I don't think you're understnading me, let me clarify:

There is one path to salvation. That path is the Catholic Truth. Following the Natural Law is still adhering to the Catholic Truth in the case of invincible ignorance. They are not culpable for their ignorance.

People who willfully reject this Catholic Truth are not invincibly ignorant, but willfully ignorant, and are not saved. They are culpable for their ignorance.

You are saying there are many paths to salvation, I'm saying there is only one.

Let me quote a document from your favorite mis-interpretted council:

Lumen Gentium:

"14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

All mankind must respond to the initial grace of faith given to us freely by God.

That response, when fostered without bias and an open heart, with honest study, will lead to the Catholic Church, as it is the respoitory of all revealed Truth.

He who does not respond to that grace in this manner and willfully remains ignorant, or is unwilling to let go of biases to see the truth, it not saved, because he refuses to enter into it.

Is that clearer?

Winnipeg Catholic said...

OK, one path. Got it.

But if person A follows natural law and ends up in the same saved place as person B, then they both reached the same destination. If person A got to that destination while adhering to a lesser faith, well, a lot of people would call that another path. You just refuse to call it a path. OK they are on the same path then, they are following the same natural law in their hearts. But they are wearing different clothing. One of them chants like a Buddhist, prays like a Jew, and yet another like a Christian.

Now maybe you want to go far enough to say that person B only *thinks* that their wearing a Buddhist robe, but in God's eye's their the robes of a catholic. But I wouldn't be so sure of that. The person is in fact adhering to a different faith or no faith at all. Maybe they are the wrong clothes for the journey. Maybe the Catholic will be all nice and toasty warm and have it easy while the ancient Greek stoic freezes his tender parts off. But that doesn' really make much of a fundamental difference from:

'There are many like it, but this one is ours'.

Unitas said...

"OK, one path. Got it.

But if person A follows natural law and ends up in the same saved place as person B, then they both reached the same destination. If person A got to that destination while adhering to a lesser faith, well, a lot of people would call that another path. You just refuse to call it a path. OK they are on the same path then, they are following the same natural law in their hearts. But they are wearing different clothing. One of them chants like a Buddhist, prays like a Jew, and yet another like a Christian."

All truth is Catholic.

If person A *that is invincibly ignorant* follows the Natural Law and is saved then he has been saved by Catholic Truth.

If Person B follows Catholic Truth in its entirety and is saved then he has been saved by Catholic Truth.

Only the (Catholic) Truth saves.

It's the same truth and the same faith. Incincible ignorance may lessen a person's culpability the same as a person's willful ignorance raises his culpability.

It's rather simple.

Winnipeg Catholic said...

I think I've seen a lot of invincible ignorance for sure. I think you ought to read JPII's book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, and try using your bold print on the nice words or not at all.

Unitas said...

"I think I've seen a lot of invincible ignorance for sure. I think you ought to read JPII's book Crossing the Threshold of Hope, and try using your bold print on the nice words or not at all."

I have the book, and while it is very esoteric and pastoral I must say that nowhere does it support your claims.

Is what I emphasize the "mean" words as opposed to the "nice" words? Should I just ignore them since they could hurt some feelings?

Should truth be censored so it won't offend anyone?

That might be how your theology works, but not mine.

The Truth is hard for some to handle, I know. The bolding really makes it "pop" so no matter how much people don't want to see it, there it is.

Your aversion to the naked (or rather, bolded) truth is reminiscent of Dorian Grey's aversion to his portrait; That somehow seeing it will disenchant the spell you've put yourself under, and bring you to account for your errors.

Good.

I hope one day you will repent of your heresies. For your sake.